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Merlin
Jun 14, 2008 17:37:28 GMT 9.5
Post by Kathleen on Jun 14, 2008 17:37:28 GMT 9.5
I just listened to that song for the first time. It's cute lol. I thought the lyrics didn't really flow well in a song though.
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Merlin
Jul 29, 2008 18:07:05 GMT 9.5
Post by Arwen17 on Jul 29, 2008 18:07:05 GMT 9.5
some books I've read recently: I am Morgan le FayI am MordredI really, really liked the Morgan one, it was excellent! And Mordred is the second book the author wrote and it is almost as good at the first. And I just picked up another book called The Faerie Path by Frewin Jones that I have not read yet, but I thought I'd throw the name out there. offtopic: I just finished reading Wicked and I'll be reading Son of Witch next.
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Merlin
Jul 30, 2008 12:40:52 GMT 9.5
Post by Libitine on Jul 30, 2008 12:40:52 GMT 9.5
Ah Wicked. Totally off topic deary, but so excellent. I have read everything by Gregory Maguire.
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Merlin
Oct 3, 2008 10:47:31 GMT 9.5
Post by Arwen17 on Oct 3, 2008 10:47:31 GMT 9.5
I'm rereading the Merlin books again. And I decided to voice my thoughts about certain parts, maybe start a little discussion here again. Nimue is accepting Mab's offer to fix her face. bk3 pg173 "But it was not necessary for Nimue to understand, only to make this pact that would take Merlin out of the World of Men before it could deliver its final blow to his warrior spirit. In that moment Nimue was more than a woman, more than the inculpable bride of the White Christ. She was the Goddess Herself, ageless and abiding, harsh with necessity, who bore the warrior-prince she would someday lay to rest in his narrow bed of earth. Merlin was her son, her lover, her victim, and she must play unflinchingly her part in the glorious pageant of his life." What's interesting to me is that these words are describing Nimue who is Christian, but she is being described as the "Goddess Herself" at this moment. "Merlin was her son, her lover, her victim" these words would describe Mab's relationship with Merlin, but they are being applied to Nimue. Merlin is getting ready to enter Nimue's cave bk3 pg210 "All magic goes in threes, Merlin thought suddenly. Frik had told him that once, long ago. The great tides of a man's life were threefold: as a child, as a lover, as victim. Twice before Merlin had gone into darkness, and each time had changed him." It goes on to mention "child" one as him entering the Land of Magic for the first time, then it mentions entering Vortigern's dungeons, then the third time is him entering Nimue's cave. I think Vortigern's dungeons count as the "lover" one because he meets Nimue later and the whole dragon episode follows. Then that would make Nimue's cave the "victim." Its interesting that a man's life includes a "victim" phase. The only thing I could think of is maybe is a hint towards how Adam was a victim, in a certain fashion, of Eve with the apple. Nimue's cave is Merlin's forbidden fruit possibly. Otherwise I don't see exactly where this "victim" part of a man's life comes in. Herne summons the stag Merlin chases through the woods. bk1 pg68 "Run boy. And find only the good that the world holds, Herne commanded silently." I have no idea why Herne summon this random stag for Merlin to chase through the woods or what it was really supposed to accomplish. But it eventually leads him to the shrine of the Old Ways hidden in the pond. That's where he sees Mab's three different aspects statue and falls in love with the Maiden aspect. Did Merlin find the only "good that the world holds" according to Herne? Interesting that he runs into the Old Ways (specifically Mab statues) by following that stag. small detail Frik mentioned that I wondered about bk1 pg106 "Of course her Highness was always bringing home these seven-year stands, like that Thomas Whatisname who'd wanted to be a poet. Remarkably bad verse, if Frik remembered, and eventually Mab had gotten so tired of him that she'd put a curse on him to tell nothing but the truth. That had set the fellow packing!" what does "seven-year stands" mean? I tried Google, but I couldn't find any kind of story on who Thomas might be. I think I've heard a phrase called "Truthful Thomas" before somewhere. Tell me what you think about all of this!!!! I'm still reading through book 1; I'll post more if something strikes me as I go along.
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Merlin
Oct 3, 2008 21:30:04 GMT 9.5
Post by himiko on Oct 3, 2008 21:30:04 GMT 9.5
Ah, more discussions is good!
I had wondered that about Nimue before- as you say, the description of her would fit Mab's relationship with Merlin better than Nimue and Merlin's, IMO. It could be to emphasise the "selflessness" of her decision, I suppose, the idea that this is all for Merlin's own good, and that she is making the choice for that reason. For the reasons behind using such pagan imagery to put the point across, I don't know. It seemed very much like the author wanted to write something fancy, LOL.
The cave... well, I suppose I can see the parallels you mention- Merlin is lured into a "trap" of sorts- but I wouldn't really describe him as a "victim", until perhaps after he LEAVES the cave and finds himself separated from Nimue.
LOL, well, what better exercise for a young boy than to chase random woodland animals? No, seriously though... again, it could just be down to bad writing- they needed an excuse to have Merlin find that shrine, look at the Maiden, etc. But it's interesting that it's a shrine to the Old Ways that he finds, rather than something else- perhaps the writer did intend to convey something? That shrine is still whole, for instance, the Maiden and Mother aspects of Mab still intact, the "good" parts of her if you will, the softer aspects. Of course, the idea seems to be that the "Maiden" Merlin falls in love with is infact Nimue- but, tying into the first point, it's another interesting part where Nimue, the main Christian character of the film, is shown/described through the use of Mab's images/symbolism/religion... Maybe it's to emphasise a similarity between Mab and Nimue, LOL- Oedipal undertones XD. Not likely, though, considering how dissimilar they seem in many aspects.
Seven-year-stands- well, I assume they're the equivalent of one-night stands for an immortal being such as Mab. Perhaps not quite so fleeting, but I always took it that it referred to mortals (since that was the group upon whom Frik was musing) that she took a fancy to, then got bored with after a while (averaging out at 7 years, it seems).
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Merlin
Oct 3, 2008 23:53:02 GMT 9.5
Post by Incapability on Oct 3, 2008 23:53:02 GMT 9.5
I always thought that this Thomas was Thomas Mann, who wrote a book called "Der Zauberberg" (The Magic Mountain). The book in itself has nothing to do with fairy hills, or in fact hills, fairies or magic of any kind.
It would make a nice explanation, but unless the reference has more layers than I'm willing to give the author credit for, the title of the book is the only reason to call the guy Thomas.
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Merlin
Oct 6, 2008 20:44:25 GMT 9.5
Post by Maellowyn on Oct 6, 2008 20:44:25 GMT 9.5
After I was reading the books, I was kind a bit of irritated, cause: 1st - the additionol story, that didn't appear in the film 2nd - far worse - the author has a completly different view on the events, than I used to have
So I have to say, that I'd really prefer the movie to the books ... but maybe it is also the fault of the german translation...
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Merlin
Oct 7, 2008 12:03:49 GMT 9.5
Post by Arwen17 on Oct 7, 2008 12:03:49 GMT 9.5
I knew the name "Thomas" was familiar for some reason. i had an epiphany late last night. In the book "I am Morgan le Fay" by Nancy Springer, Morgan's lover is named Thomas. In another book "The Faerie Path" by Frewin Jones, Tania's lover is Thomas. Must be a connection! True Thomas en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_the_RhymerSeveral different variants of the ballad of Thomas Rhymer exist, most having the same basic theme. They tell how Thomas either kissed or slept with the Queen of Elfland and either rode with her or was otherwise transported to Fairyland. why couldnt miranda richardson have been sleeveless in the movie? pg110 even though i'm a female, she is so hot! "She wore a flashing crescent-moon tiara of amethysts and black diamonds, and her long sleeveless violet gown was oversewn with the same jewels. On her arms, coiling from shoulders to wrists, she wore diamond-studded bracelets in the shape of poisonous snakes." interesting history of the names in the books Cath Palug-cat Merlin meets in the Forest of Night en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cath_PalugBran - the crow - one of merlin's animal friends from the beginning en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bran_the_Blessedelissa - merlin's human mother en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dido_(Queen_of_Carthage)Blaise, in some accounts, a master of Merlin in Arthurian legends. according to wiki en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herne_the_HunterAvalon is a legendary island featured in the Arthurian legend, famous for its beautiful apples. (Ooo, there's that apple tree in the movie again!) Still reading! About the Mab/nimue comparisons, I kinda thought about how even though nimue is christian, she is a female. And pagan stuff seems to center around "feminine power" while christianity is more "masculine" oriented with the "father, son" vocabulary. Maybe the author is using the pagan goddess description for nimue to show nimue is a strong young woman and that she's got "girl power!" lol I don't think the author wrote this book without doing any research. if he didn't research, he must have been an expert on fairy tales to begin with. he put at least a little thought into it before he sat down to write it, but yes its not like its the next Lord of the Rings or Harry Potter novel. p114 i make a lot of connections with other fairy tales with the stuff described on this page such as wizard of oz, beauty and the beast, unicorns, etc.
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Merlin
Oct 7, 2008 12:36:13 GMT 9.5
Post by himiko on Oct 7, 2008 12:36:13 GMT 9.5
Wow, that does make a lot of sense, actually, about that Thomas guy. Dates don't really match up, though :S. But I guess the general idea of this "7-year-stand Thomas" could have been taken from this guy. Thankees for all the informative linkies!
Miranda is hot indeed, especially as Mab, and it would have been nice to see her in less... concealing clothes. She still looked gorgeous though.
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Merlin
Oct 7, 2008 15:23:47 GMT 9.5
Post by Arwen17 on Oct 7, 2008 15:23:47 GMT 9.5
oh yeah I totally loved all her dresses, but there just wasn't a lot of skin happening. I love your sloganizer! Its amazing! "Mab, better than sex."
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Merlin
Oct 14, 2008 12:30:59 GMT 9.5
Post by Arwen17 on Oct 14, 2008 12:30:59 GMT 9.5
I'm noticing a huge part of the myth connections I've been making with the books have all been from welsh myth. Anoeth www.geocities.com/vortigernstudies/articles/guestdan10.htmwww.maryjones.us/ctexts/bbc19.htmlread #19 and #24 at the bottom I have no idea why only the french version of the wiki mentions this. fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fr%C3%A1ech_Mac_Idaththe english equivalent does not have idath as part of the name en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fr%C3%A1echI thought this whole page was fascinating. The movie is possibly more accurate than we thought about the merlin myths. www.timelessmyths.com/arthurian/merlin.htmlI've never brought it up before, but I have wondered in the past if Frik was supposed to symbolize The Fool Amandan. There is always The Queen and The Fool in the sidhe stories. However, even though the character is called The Fool he is typically very, very wise. I can't see Frik as wise that's why I struggle with connecting him to the Amandan. And the fact that Frik is a gnome, while Amandan is a faerie. This website actually mentions the Forest of the Night under Arawan!! It is the only reference I have found so far that as said anything about the Forest of the Night. www.celticjewelry.org/celtic_mythology.shtmlArawn sounds like a much more possible Idath. Annwn is the name of the Otherworld. Annwn=Anoeth is similar. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ArawnThe Wicker man, the roman soldiers were burned in, on pg142. this scene creeps me out. its the only scene that bothered me even a little in all the books. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wicker_Manwww.activityholidaysguide.com/images/wickerman.jpg <--its just really creepy looking to me. "We are the Wild Hunt, and all mortal kind's forgotten gods and terrors ride with us." pg 172 So does Mab ride with them now since she is forgotten? "Go and tell them in Arcadia that great Pan is dead!" pg 176 The Wild Hunt rider who shouted this is described as having the horns of a goat. Maybe it is Pan himself who shouted this and that would prove forgotten and dead gods go to the Wild Hunt. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatuus"He'd spend the rest of eternity as a plaster lawn decoration, clutching a fishing rod somewhere in Surbiton." pg180 wiki - There is evidence that a settlement has existed at Surbiton since at least 1179. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SurbitonI guess that's the reason why Surbiton was chosen and not some other place. Otherwise, are there a lot of garden gnomes in Surbiton?
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Merlin
Oct 30, 2008 11:32:59 GMT 9.5
Post by Arwen17 on Oct 30, 2008 11:32:59 GMT 9.5
"The fairy magic was all based on illusion, cold, heartless and misleading as moonlight. It didn't
affect anything real. In the most profound sense, it didn't matter." pg 184 This quote probably bothers me the most in all the books. I think learning the magic was pointless.
A king doesn't need magic to rule a country. I understand that Mab created someone who possibly
wouldn't betray her because Merlin's half-fae. But it doesn't really matter if he learns magic or not in
order to be king. The only requirements for a king is the ability and knowledge of how to govern
effectively. That's why it really didn't matter. Merlin had the right idea with Arthur because he was
raising Arthur to be a king. Merlin was being raised to be a wizard, not necessarily a king. Maybe
that's why Merlin was a wizard, but not king, because he was being trained more on the wizard side
of things. Mab fixes this mistake when she raises Mordred to be a king instead of a wizard. They
needed to teach the Old Ways to him as a religion, not as a magic show. The people he would be
king over wouldn't have magic, just religion.
pg 192 Mab has found out Merlin doesn't like magic and Mab says "Bring him to me." "But Merlin had unwittingly placed himself beyond the reach of Mab's wrath." I wonder what she thinks she could have done to him make him cooperate? Anything I see her
doing would have just turned Merlin more away from her.
pg 196 "A sensation for which he had no name was growing in Merlin's chest. It was as destructive as fire,
as cold as the water of the Enchanted Lake, as hard and unyielding as the crystals that Mab so loved." If circumstances had been a little bit different and someone of the Christian religion had killed his
mom, then I think Merlin would have viewed that religion as the enemy. He's determined to get
revenge on people who wrong him as much as Mab does.
pg199 "He knew that Mab's underground kingdom was dangerous to any but his mistress, but at the moment he didn't care." I just thought this was cool cause its the only place in the whole series that Merlin acknowledges Mab as his "mistress."
pg233 "For weeks afterward he'd come here to sit atop the gave-mound and tell Elissa the things he did
with his day, imagining her living just a she did, only in a house far beneath the surface of the
earth." I thought this was really cute and sad. The one thing it made me think of though was that Mab
does live in a house beneath the Hollow Hills.
To wrap this up, I really don't understand why The Lady of the Lake was so determined to antagonize Mab by helping Merlin. LotL and Mab's interests had never crossed before and now suddenly LotL wants to help destroy her own kind? Even if LotL didn't want to help or didn't approve of Mab' s methods there was still no reason to enterfere. If it seems like LotL did it because she liked Merlin and wanted to help him I really doubt it that's the reason. She had never even met Merlin before then. I've yet to see a fae in the story that did something that didn't have about 50 other ulterior motives as well. Whatever the reason, LotL wanted to start a conflict with her sister.
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Merlin
Nov 7, 2008 8:05:35 GMT 9.5
Post by Maellowyn on Nov 7, 2008 8:05:35 GMT 9.5
Interesting interpretations... and I totally agree to your opinion about the LotL!! Sometimes I believe every thing that goes wrong in the story is her fault - it seems, that she planed it all. Told Merlin just at the "right" time about his dead mother, had immediately the "perfect" weapon (Excalibur) for him and told him to find the man at Joyous Garden - but hey he should have know it is a little underage boy to protect the thrown and so on.... yeah and the pope appreciates hooligans, I mean come on who believes it? This woman is strange. But at least she managed in her helpful way not only to kill her sister but also herself. And now another point I just have to get off my chest: For research don't use web sites like wikipedia or pseudo-scientific pages. The news there are interesting and can give an overview for a certain topic but the validity isn't proven. Better do research in libraries with books of historicans or national bibliographies, if you want to do it right. Wish I could give you more links, but I'm more firm with the german historicans, who aren't much of use for you. www.rhs.ac.uk/bibwel.aspwww.irishhistoryonline.ie/(Sorry for that that, but every time I see people relying only on wiki it reminds me of my professors warning)
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Merlin
Nov 10, 2008 6:04:37 GMT 9.5
Post by Arwen17 on Nov 10, 2008 6:04:37 GMT 9.5
yes, mab's agenda is clear as crystal compared to LotL.
yes they always tell us not to use wiki, but i use it cause its useful. i just dont cite it on my papers. i cite the other websites that are considered valid. i think they do a good job of keeping wiki's info accurate. i changed one of the pages once and i went back the next day and it was already returned to what it originally said. just to test the theory that anyone can edit and get away with it. and its usually pretty obvious when something isn't true on the page. i will take a look at the those links though. they look interesting.
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mablove
Mirandaholic
With evil all around me, I have to do evil to survive
Posts: 101
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Merlin
Mar 29, 2009 7:53:04 GMT 9.5
Post by mablove on Mar 29, 2009 7:53:04 GMT 9.5
hey guys,
has anyone here read the crystal cave and subsequent books by mary stewart? they seem to have inspired the film alot also one of my fave series is called the deverry cycle by katherine kerr. her portrayal of spirits called the guardians matches how mab is portrayed in the film. katherine kerr based these particular characters off the seelie host which i think is also where mab comes from
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