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Merlin
Mar 24, 2007 18:13:15 GMT 9.5
Post by Incapability on Mar 24, 2007 18:13:15 GMT 9.5
Yeah, from a human point of view, he can be understood, and I think that that is what the movie is about. But when you consider that Mab isn't human and has different values, she can be understood as well. I'd say the relationship is pretty complex, and I don't think it was only hatred coming fro Merlin's part, even though that was probably what he wanted to believe.
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Merlin
Mar 24, 2007 23:26:37 GMT 9.5
Post by ladygiry on Mar 24, 2007 23:26:37 GMT 9.5
I agree. Their relationship is much more complex than what meets the eye. If he had only hated her he wouldn't have lamented over the fact that anyone he had ever loved or who had ever loved him was gone after Mab had faded away. At least that's my view on the matter.
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Merlin
Mar 25, 2007 2:20:26 GMT 9.5
Post by Arwen17 on Mar 25, 2007 2:20:26 GMT 9.5
I agree she's not human so she sees things differently. But she is dealing with humans who are going to act like humans all the time so its not much of an excuse. I don't think she killed either his mother or Ambrosia. His mother was dying, loads of people die in childbirth in that time period, mab didn't need to do anything to help that along. Ambrosia was dying, mab might of helped that along with her voice, but Ambrosia was gonna be dead soon anyways. But Mab shouldn't say things like "No I didn't, I only let her die." That is not the way to make Merlin want to do things for you!
When Mab uses words like "let" it seems like she has power over life and dead. Yet when it comes to saving the dying: merlin's mother, ambrosia, mordred she doesn't do it. She doesn't kill frik and she makes morgan trip and leaves the rest to gravity. Does she really have the power to stop death or kill someone directly? It seems like Merlin and her were playing by some strange rules. Merlin could have just gone and killed Mordred when he was a baby and be done with it. Mab could have killed Arthur when he was just a baby. It doesn't seem like she's able to do things directly she has to influence humans to carry out her will. She may not be able to kill or stop death because those are things of nature that are supposed to happen. Merlin seems to be able to do some things more directly like killing vortigen, but most of the time he's setting up everyone else to do what he wants too.
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Merlin
Mar 25, 2007 3:37:04 GMT 9.5
Post by Arwen17 on Mar 25, 2007 3:37:04 GMT 9.5
I've read some fanfics over at fanfiction.net The ones I could find at least. The only story I found that was more than 1 chapter long was the one with Mab and Jareth and it was ok. Are there any fanfics anyone knows of? Would love to read just about anything of the Merlin universe
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Merlin
Mar 25, 2007 7:16:32 GMT 9.5
Post by himiko on Mar 25, 2007 7:16:32 GMT 9.5
Prepare for a post of unholy length. Well... I'm afraid I'm more than a little bit guilty of Merlin-bashing on occasion *shuffles feet guiltily* Mostly because of him killing Mab, ending magic, etc. But I think Sam Neill acted the part very well- he mananged to make him calm enough and human enough that he wasn't the comic relief or stereotypical "wise old man" that Merlin becomes in most other Camelot-related films. I just prefer Mab. That said, in "Merlin's Apprentice", I preferred the character of Merlin to most of the others. The love/hate debate (hehe, that rhymes...)- It's hard to say. As far as Mab goes, I think she does love Merlin- aside from the fact that she says it out loud twice (to Nimue and to Merlin), there is evidence in both the books and film to support the idea that her feelings for Merlin are at least stronger than her feelings for most other people- such as when she says that she wanted Merlin to return to her so she fooled herself, and Frik replies that he's never known her to do that before, over anyone. For Merlin's part, I agree that the love aspect is toned down, and I daresay he would like to think he didn't love her, but as someone said before, he doesn't bemoan the loss of everyone he loves and who loved him after Arthur dies, or after the Lady of the Lake vanishes- only after Mab dies does he count himself truly alone. You make the point that although Mab isn't human, she mingles with humans all the time, and should understand their values. Fair enough, but the fact remains that she ISN'T human- she looks human in shape, she speaks in a human language, but she isn't human. Humans are an entirely separate species, if you want to put it that way. In fact, from Mab's point of view, humans are a lesser species- not only in the fact that she is more powerful than they, but also in the fact that they worship her (or in the past, have worshipped her). Whilst she might observe their behaviours and values and standards, that doesn't mean to say that she understands them, and it certainly doesn't mean that she would conform to them, or even that she should conform to them. I agree, the way she handles Merlin isn't the best way to bring him back on side- she can be arrogant and stubborn and cold, at times when human logic would dictate that she should be acting in a completely opposite manner- but it is precisely this that illustrates her lack of understanding of humanity. She is desparate to bring Merlin back to her side, no point in arguing that, and, bless her, she perserveres (Mab is nothing if not stubborn), but all her actions seem to drive Merlin further away from her, because he sees things from a human point of view, and she doesn't. Neither of them make any effort to try and see it from the other's point of view, because it is in many ways, completely contradictory to their own. Take the sacrifice of Nimue, for one thing. Mab's intentions- to provoke Merlin into using his magic. She believes that once he uses magic, he will be unable to resist using it again, and will return to her. Whatever will happen to Nimue is immaterial- she doesn't care when Nimue survives. Merlin, on the other hand, looks at it from the human persepective. As far as he is concerned, Mab has tried to kill the woman he loves, which makes him turn against her even more. No, Mab doesn't have power over life and death. She never says so in the films, but in the shooting script and books, she says that the magic of the Old Ways can neither reverse death, or kill someone (there seem to be ways round this- as you say, she makes Morgan trip, resulting in her death, but she doesn't have the equivalent of, say, the Avada Kedavra curse from Harry Potter). I'm not sure whether or not she has any kind of healing magic at her disposal, and that is what Ambrosia and Merlin mean when they accuse her of letting people die, or whether she simply claims she lets them die, because she would rather say "I could have, but I didn't" than "I can't do it". Damn pride. But no, Mab doesn't have the power to bring people back from the dead, or to kill them. Idath, on the other hand (Lord of Death) apparently CAN reverse death (in the books, she asks Idath to save Mordred, but he refuses). Now, fanfiction. As to fics on ff.net, I can't think of any off the top of my head, and a lot of the fics on there are written by members from here. I'll give you the links to the authors I know of on there that have written any Merlin fics (and their corresponding username on here if applicable- anyone let me know if I get these wrong or if I've forgotten someone!) Lildrusilla (Me)- www.fanfiction.net/u/769773/Incapability (Incapability)- www.fanfiction.net/u/677377/novitas (Kierah)- www.fanfiction.net/u/753777/Miranda Priestly (ladygiry)- www.fanfiction.net/u/762970/If you check through the "Favourites" pages on these, you should find some more. As to other fics, if you check out the "Fan Work" section of the board, there are quite a few Merlin fics. Incapability's "Evil Plot Bunny" fic and some of the fics in the "Fic Challenge" thread have multiple chapters. I think if I go into any more detail, my fingers will fall off.
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Merlin
Mar 25, 2007 8:28:26 GMT 9.5
Post by Arwen17 on Mar 25, 2007 8:28:26 GMT 9.5
Thanks for the fanfics and the great response! So she doesn't understand humans because she isn't human and that she sees no reason to try. Well that is like going to France and saying "I'm going to speak english anyway, I don't care if they understand me or not." She is not going to be able to get humans to do what she wants if she doesn't speak their language at least while she is among them. Humans don't have the capacity to understand her I think cause she is so much older than them. Merlin should be able to understand her better since part of her is in him. So they are both at fault, I've always totally agreed on that. I'm just saying the way she decided to do things is why she got the result that she did from Merlin etc. *bounces off to the fanfics*
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Merlin
Mar 25, 2007 9:54:17 GMT 9.5
Post by Incapability on Mar 25, 2007 9:54:17 GMT 9.5
I think in the book they said that she simply COULD not understand human feelings. She knew their "symptoms" allright, but she couldn't feel them. She could not truly understand emotional motivations. She could tell: "Oh, Lancelot loves Guinivere, so he will do this and that to save her", but she could never say:"he will save her because loosing her would tear his heart to pieces and make his whole life worthless."
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Merlin
Mar 26, 2007 5:31:59 GMT 9.5
Post by himiko on Mar 26, 2007 5:31:59 GMT 9.5
Yes, Incapa, once again you manage to explain better in a few lines than I did in my huge-normous post *weeps*.
Yes, I see where you're coming from, arwen17, and I agree that Mab's actions and reactions ARE a large part of why Merlin abandons her in the first place. However, I wouldn't quite agree with the "French" example. Like Incapa says, although Mab knows human feelings, she doesn't neccessarily understand them. She can't feel human emotions, or at least, not in the same way that humans do. It's like, say, humans and dogs. My family has a dog. Having observed this dog, and others, over long periods of time, I know most of her behavioural patterns, and how she will react to certain things, etc. It doesn't mean that I would neccessarily understand or copy the behaviour. And vice versa- the dog isn't going to start walking around on two legs and eating with a knife and fork, etc. just because the humans around her do. Two separate species, separate reactions, separate mindsets. Sorry, it's not a great analogy, but you get the idea.
With Merlin, it's probably more complicated- he is, after all, half magical and half human- but the human side of him certainly seems the dominant one- possibly because he is raised in the human world. Although it's certainly the case that perhaps he should have been able to understand her better than most others, by the time he became more "used" to his powers and being a wizard, he and Mab were already at war.
OT: arwen, are you a member of fanfiction.net, perchance?
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Merlin
Mar 26, 2007 17:15:46 GMT 9.5
Post by Incapability on Mar 26, 2007 17:15:46 GMT 9.5
I think the dog-example is a really reallly good one.
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Merlin
Mar 27, 2007 4:55:37 GMT 9.5
Post by Arwen17 on Mar 27, 2007 4:55:37 GMT 9.5
Its a good example. So there was no solution to the problem? since neither was going to be able to understand each other cept Merlin still should have been able to understand both sides since he's both.
No, I'm not a member.......but I read a lot of stuff on there.
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Merlin
Mar 27, 2007 5:10:08 GMT 9.5
Post by Incapability on Mar 27, 2007 5:10:08 GMT 9.5
well, yeah, that's basically it. No solution unless Merlin would have been willing to make a huge effort to understand Mab. Rather sad, actually.
And you should become a member. You can make a favourites-list, helping other members to navigate their way through the heaps of crap you can find there to the gems that do against common believe actually exist. Not to mention that you could post your fics. Do you write any, btw?
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Merlin
Mar 27, 2007 5:34:29 GMT 9.5
Post by himiko on Mar 27, 2007 5:34:29 GMT 9.5
Alternatively, you could post any fics you might write up here, to keep us crazy Mab-fans entertained!
Yes, I think a solution would have been very hard to find. Although apparently Mab was able to love and grieve before Romans and Christians turned up and started killing her followers, etc, so perhaps if Merlin had continued to follow her, and she had gained power, she might have become more "human", if you like.
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Merlin
Mar 28, 2007 0:39:40 GMT 9.5
Post by Arwen17 on Mar 28, 2007 0:39:40 GMT 9.5
So if everything had gone the way Mab planned it from the beginning was Merlin basically supposed to become King of Britain and restore the old ways? and do what about the Christians? No one ever said kill the Christians, just "lead the people back to the old ways." You think they would've killed them since they were killing the pagans first? I don't think I would be able to keep Mab in-character. She's a very hard character to write. Maybe I'll have a better idea after I read the books. Awhile ago I started writing a Harry Potter fanfic in my notebook and got to like chapter 3. I've got lots of good ideas, but finding the time and getting them down on paper how you want it is hard. I'll sign up tho and start my favorites list. I've found good Harry Potter fics on there too, so yes, I do know there are gems among the crap. Mab video I made today: www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhw3527VUrM
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Merlin
Mar 28, 2007 2:20:15 GMT 9.5
Post by Incapability on Mar 28, 2007 2:20:15 GMT 9.5
Yeah, it's hard to get the ideas to paper, which is why I write mainly one-shots. I think that's a good way to start and to feel one's way into a character. And yes, Mab sure as hell is not one of the easier ones. And yes yes, do start a HP-list. Finding good ones in that fandom is especially hard because everyone seems to think he can write them.
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Merlin
Mar 28, 2007 6:26:09 GMT 9.5
Post by himiko on Mar 28, 2007 6:26:09 GMT 9.5
I sympathise with you greatly. Mab's hard to write, although I have to say, in some cases I find her much easier to write than Merlin. Don't know why. And writer's block is a terrible thing...
Yes, there are gems amongst the crap, which can be a joy to find. However, a word of caution. If you come across a HP fic named "My Immortal", by someone with a name like "bloodywrists", or something similar, avoid it like the plague. Avoid it like it an evil, face-eating monster that's about to leap out of your computer screen and eat you. It's either a very long ongoing pisstake, or deadly serious, which is even worse...
*skips off to watch video*
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